This project has a lot of email lists [*] -- but I feel we're either missing 1 or 2 lists or we have too many.  Given all our lists, it's not clear which one we should use to talk about cross project dev issues and cross project community/policy issues.  general@ has perhaps become a catch all list with user, dev, and community issues inter-mixed.  Is that what we want?  Should we create more lists to break out these topics?  Live with the current inter-mingling? Or consolidate some lists?

Nige

[*] I may have missed some:
general@
security@
private@
common-user@
common-dev@
common-commits@
common-issues@
hdfs-user@
hdfs-dev@
hdfs-commits@
hdfs-issues@
mapreduce-user@
mapreduce-dev@
mapreduce-commits@
mapreduce-issues@

I'd love to have a list that covers most of what is on general (big topics on governance, etc), but does not have usage questions on it.  I'd suggest creating a new list for that and letting general become a general questions list.

On Jan 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:

> This project has a lot of email lists [*] -- but I feel we're either missing 1 or 2 lists or we have too many.  Given all our lists, it's not clear which one we should use to talk about cross project dev issues and cross project community/policy issues.  general@ has perhaps become a catch all list with user, dev, and community issues inter-mixed.  Is that what we want?  Should we create more lists to break out these topics?  Live with the current inter-mingling? Or consolidate some lists?
>
> Nige
>
> [*] I may have missed some:
> general@
> security@
> private@
> common-user@
> common-dev@
> common-commits@
> common-issues@
> hdfs-user@
> hdfs-dev@
> hdfs-commits@
> hdfs-issues@
> mapreduce-user@
> mapreduce-dev@
> mapreduce-commits@
> mapreduce-issues@

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 21:23, Eric Baldeschwieler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd love to have a list that covers most of what is on general (big topics on governance, etc), but does not have usage questions on it.  I'd suggest creating a new list for that and letting general become a general questions list.

That what common-user@ is for.

> On Jan 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>
>> This project has a lot of email lists [*] -- but I feel we're either missing 1 or 2 lists or we have too many.  Given all our lists, it's not clear which one we should use to talk about cross project dev issues and cross project community/policy issues.  general@ has perhaps become a catch all list with user, dev, and community issues inter-mixed.  Is that what we want?  Should we create more lists to break out these topics?  Live with the current inter-mingling? Or consolidate some lists?
>>
>> Nige
>>
>> [*] I may have missed some:
>> general@
>> security@
>> private@
>> common-user@
>> common-dev@
>> common-commits@
>> common-issues@
>> hdfs-user@
>> hdfs-dev@
>> hdfs-commits@
>> hdfs-issues@
>> mapreduce-user@
>> mapreduce-dev@
>> mapreduce-commits@
>> mapreduce-issues@
>
>

> That what common-user@ is for.

Is it?  AFAICT we don't try to move user discussions there.  Nor do I see it documented anywhere that common-user@ is for cross hadoop user questions.  Also, FWIW, that list is documented at hadoop.apache.org -> common -> developers -> mailing lists -- not very intuitive.

Nige
On Jan 10, 2011, at 9:51 PM, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 21:23, Eric Baldeschwieler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I'd love to have a list that covers most of what is on general (big topics on governance, etc), but does not have usage questions on it.  I'd suggest creating a new list for that and letting general become a general questions list.
>
> That what common-user@ is for.
>
>> On Jan 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>
>>> This project has a lot of email lists [*] -- but I feel we're either missing 1 or 2 lists or we have too many.  Given all our lists, it's not clear which one we should use to talk about cross project dev issues and cross project community/policy issues.  general@ has perhaps become a catch all list with user, dev, and community issues inter-mixed.  Is that what we want?  Should we create more lists to break out these topics?  Live with the current inter-mingling? Or consolidate some lists?
>>>
>>> Nige
>>>
>>> [*] I may have missed some:
>>> general@
>>> security@
>>> private@
>>> common-user@
>>> common-dev@
>>> common-commits@
>>> common-issues@
>>> hdfs-user@
>>> hdfs-dev@
>>> hdfs-commits@
>>> hdfs-issues@
>>> mapreduce-user@
>>> mapreduce-dev@
>>> mapreduce-commits@
>>> mapreduce-issues@
>>
>>

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 22:00, Nigel Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> That what common-user@ is for.
>
> Is it?  AFAICT we don't try to move user discussions there.  Nor do I see it documented anywhere that common-user@ is for cross hadoop user questions.  Also, FWIW, that list is documented at hadoop.apache.org -> common -> developers -> mailing lists -- not very intuitive.

While I in agreement with your logic above.. Let's see... If I have a
use question about Hadoop (not HDFS nor MR) where would I go? general@
doesn't sound very convincing... A-ha! common-user@.... *firing up
email client*

Instead of creating new lists to add an insult to the injury perhaps
we shall just make the intention for the existing ones more apparent?
E.g. re-organize 'mailing lists' section or something? I believe
developers, in general, are able to find information on their own.
Users sometimes demonstrate a lack of such ability ;) And we are well
beyond 'dev. only' community as far as I can see.

Cos

> Nige
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2011, at 9:51 PM, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 21:23, Eric Baldeschwieler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I'd love to have a list that covers most of what is on general (big topics on governance, etc), but does not have usage questions on it.  I'd suggest creating a new list for that and letting general become a general questions list.
>>
>> That what common-user@ is for.
>>
>>> On Jan 10, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>>
>>>> This project has a lot of email lists [*] -- but I feel we're either missing 1 or 2 lists or we have too many.  Given all our lists, it's not clear which one we should use to talk about cross project dev issues and cross project community/policy issues.  general@ has perhaps become a catch all list with user, dev, and community issues inter-mixed.  Is that what we want?  Should we create more lists to break out these topics?  Live with the current inter-mingling? Or consolidate some lists?
>>>>
>>>> Nige
>>>>
>>>> [*] I may have missed some:
>>>> general@
>>>> security@
>>>> private@
>>>> common-user@
>>>> common-dev@
>>>> common-commits@
>>>> common-issues@
>>>> hdfs-user@
>>>> hdfs-dev@
>>>> hdfs-commits@
>>>> hdfs-issues@
>>>> mapreduce-user@
>>>> mapreduce-dev@
>>>> mapreduce-commits@
>>>> mapreduce-issues@
>>>
>>>
>
>

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Nigel Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > That what common-user@ is for.
>
> Is it?  AFAICT we don't try to move user discussions there.
We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.

Actually, we also need to move Zookeeper to the related projects of the
site.

-- Owen

On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Nigel Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>> That what common-user@ is for.
>>
>> Is it?  AFAICT we don't try to move user discussions there.
>
>
> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.

Ok, I'll work on a page.

> Actually, we also need to move Zookeeper to the related projects of the
> site.

I'll do that too.  Can't remember -- do we file Jira's and patches for site changes?  I couldn't find a component for site in Hadoop Jira.

Cheers,
Nige

Another approach to clean-up general@ is to manually reroute (with
appropriate comment) user questions to common-user@ or other relevant
user lists.

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 20:35, Nigel Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Nigel Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>> That what common-user@ is for.
>>>
>>> Is it?  AFAICT we don't try to move user discussions there.
>>
>>
>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>
> Ok, I'll work on a page.
>
>> Actually, we also need to move Zookeeper to the related projects of the
>> site.
>
> I'll do that too.  Can't remember -- do we file Jira's and patches for site changes?  I couldn't find a component for site in Hadoop Jira.
>
> Cheers,
> Nige
>
>

Thanks nigel!!

I think some text on this page suggesting various lists for questions and a clean definition of what should go to general would go a long way.

http://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:

>
> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Nigel Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>> That what common-user@ is for.
>>>
>>> Is it?  AFAICT we don't try to move user discussions there.
>>
>>
>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>
> Ok, I'll work on a page.
>
>> Actually, we also need to move Zookeeper to the related projects of the
>> site.
>
> I'll do that too.  Can't remember -- do we file Jira's and patches for site changes?  I couldn't find a component for site in Hadoop Jira.
>
> Cheers,
> Nige
>

On 01/11/2011 08:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
> I'll do that too.  Can't remember -- do we file Jira's and patches for site changes?  I couldn't find a component for site in Hadoop Jira.

I've often made trivial site changes without filing an issue.  For
something that might need review I've filed an issue with
component=documentation and version=site.  The latter keeps it from
being associated with any release.  We could also add a 'site' component
though.

Doug

On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>
> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>
> Ok, I'll work on a page.

Done. See the revamped http://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
Corrections welcome.  You must now click on general@ to see the subscription instructions (it's a new page).
I couldn't figure out how to add cell padding around the table cells so it looks squished -- any forrest deities out there that can provide the right incantation?

>> Actually, we also need to move Zookeeper to the related projects of the
>> site.
>
> I'll do that too.

Done.  But didn't remove the tab or change the links.  They still point to hadoop.apache.org/zookeeper.  Turns out zookeeper.apache.org isn't fully ready according to Patrick.

Cheers,
Nige

On Jan 12, 2011, at 9:47 AM, Nigel Daley wrote:

>
> On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great  
>>> if someone
>>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>>
>> Ok, I'll work on a page.
>
> Done. See the revamped http://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
> Corrections welcome.  You must now click on general@ to see the  
> subscription instructions (it's a new page).

I'd suggest segregating the list into 4 tables based on audience:

user questions:
common-user
hdfs-user
mapreduce-user
security - only for notifying the project of security vulnerabilities

project level announcements and discussions:
general

developer questions:
common-dev
hdfs-dev
mapreduce-dev

jira and subversion tracking for developers:
common-issues
common-commits
hdfs-issues
hdfs-commits

mapreduce-issues
mapreduce-commits

-- Owen

to add some metrics to this discussion.

we have ~3,500 unique email addresses subscribed to at least one hadoop mailing list.
subscribed to:
1 list : 2431
2 lists:  784
3 lists:  238
4 lists:  118
5 lists:   56
6 lists:   66
7 lists:  102

(I didn't look at the various 'issues or commits' mailing lists).

So I'm not really sure adding another list will get more focused discussions, or further split up the community.

On Jan 12, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Owen O'Malley wrote:

>
> On Jan 12, 2011, at 9:47 AM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>>>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
>>>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>>>
>>> Ok, I'll work on a page.
>>
>> Done. See the revamped http://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
>> Corrections welcome.  You must now click on general@ to see the subscription instructions (it's a new page).
>
> I'd suggest segregating the list into 4 tables based on audience:
>
> user questions:
> common-user
> hdfs-user
> mapreduce-user
> security - only for notifying the project of security vulnerabilities
>
> project level announcements and discussions:
> general
>
> developer questions:
> common-dev
> hdfs-dev
> mapreduce-dev
>
> jira and subversion tracking for developers:
> common-issues
> common-commits
> hdfs-issues
> hdfs-commits
>
> mapreduce-issues
> mapreduce-commits
>
> -- Owen

Ya, if we keep general@ to it's intended purpose (and better document/enforce the use of various lists) then there is no need for a new list.  I'll make the edit's Owen suggested to the revamped mailing_lists.html.

I'm still confused, however, where release discussions should happen.  general@ or common-dev@?  I guess I'll leave them on general@ unless this is enough opposition to that.

Nige

On Jan 12, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Ian Holsman wrote:

> to add some metrics to this discussion.
>
> we have ~3,500 unique email addresses subscribed to at least one hadoop mailing list.
>
>
> subscribed to:
> 1 list : 2431
> 2 lists:  784
> 3 lists:  238
> 4 lists:  118
> 5 lists:   56
> 6 lists:   66
> 7 lists:  102
>
> (I didn't look at the various 'issues or commits' mailing lists).
>
> So I'm not really sure adding another list will get more focused discussions, or further split up the community.
>
> On Jan 12, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jan 12, 2011, at 9:47 AM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>>>>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
>>>>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, I'll work on a page.
>>>
>>> Done. See the revamped http://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
>>> Corrections welcome.  You must now click on general@ to see the subscription instructions (it's a new page).
>>
>> I'd suggest segregating the list into 4 tables based on audience:
>>
>> user questions:
>> common-user
>> hdfs-user
>> mapreduce-user
>> security - only for notifying the project of security vulnerabilities
>>
>> project level announcements and discussions:
>> general
>>
>> developer questions:
>> common-dev
>> hdfs-dev
>> mapreduce-dev
>>
>> jira and subversion tracking for developers:
>> common-issues
>> common-commits
>> hdfs-issues
>> hdfs-commits
>>
>> mapreduce-issues
>> mapreduce-commits
>>
>> -- Owen
>

On Jan 12, 2011, at 12:14 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:

> Ya, if we keep general@ to it's intended purpose (and better  
> document/enforce the use of various lists) then there is no need for  
> a new list.  I'll make the edit's Owen suggested to the revamped  
> mailing_lists.html.
>
> I'm still confused, however, where release discussions should  
> happen.  general@ or common-dev@?  I guess I'll leave them on  
> general@ unless this is enough opposition to that.
>

+1 for general@. It seems to have the widest coverage.

Arun

> Nige
>
> On Jan 12, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Ian Holsman wrote:
>
>> to add some metrics to this discussion.
>>
>> we have ~3,500 unique email addresses subscribed to at least one  
>> hadoop mailing list.
>>
>>
>> subscribed to:
>> 1 list : 2431
>> 2 lists:  784
>> 3 lists:  238
>> 4 lists:  118
>> 5 lists:   56
>> 6 lists:   66
>> 7 lists:  102
>>
>> (I didn't look at the various 'issues or commits' mailing lists).
>>
>> So I'm not really sure adding another list will get more focused  
>> discussions, or further split up the community.
>>
>> On Jan 12, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 12, 2011, at 9:47 AM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>>>>>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be  
>>>>>> great if someone
>>>>>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I'll work on a page.
>>>>
>>>> Done. See the revamped http://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
>>>> Corrections welcome.  You must now click on general@ to see the  
>>>> subscription instructions (it's a new page).
>>>
>>> I'd suggest segregating the list into 4 tables based on audience:
>>>
>>> user questions:
>>> common-user
>>> hdfs-user
>>> mapreduce-user
>>> security - only for notifying the project of security  
>>> vulnerabilities
>>>
>>> project level announcements and discussions:
>>> general
>>>
>>> developer questions:
>>> common-dev
>>> hdfs-dev
>>> mapreduce-dev
>>>
>>> jira and subversion tracking for developers:
>>> common-issues
>>> common-commits
>>> hdfs-issues
>>> hdfs-commits
>>>
>>> mapreduce-issues
>>> mapreduce-commits
>>>
>>> -- Owen
>>
>

Updated w/ Owen's suggestions.  Feel free to tweak further.

Cheers,
Nige

On Jan 12, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:

>
> On Jan 12, 2011, at 9:47 AM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>>>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
>>>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>>>
>>> Ok, I'll work on a page.
>>
>> Done. See the revamped http://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
>> Corrections welcome.  You must now click on general@ to see the subscription instructions (it's a new page).
>
> I'd suggest segregating the list into 4 tables based on audience:
>
> user questions:
> common-user
> hdfs-user
> mapreduce-user
> security - only for notifying the project of security vulnerabilities
>
> project level announcements and discussions:
> general
>
> developer questions:
> common-dev
> hdfs-dev
> mapreduce-dev
>
> jira and subversion tracking for developers:
> common-issues
> common-commits
> hdfs-issues
> hdfs-commits
>
> mapreduce-issues
> mapreduce-commits
>
> -- Owen

Much improved. Thanks!

PS please keep branch discussions here.

---
E14 - via iPhone

On Jan 12, 2011, at 5:44 PM, "Nigel Daley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Updated w/ Owen's suggestions.  Feel free to tweak further.
>
> Cheers,
> Nige
>
> On Jan 12, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jan 12, 2011, at 9:47 AM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Nigel Daley wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
>>>>> We do try to move the questions off of general. It would be great if someone
>>>>> updated the website with the intended usage of each of the lists.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, I'll work on a page.
>>>
>>> Done. See the revamped http://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
>>> Corrections welcome.  You must now click on general@ to see the subscription instructions (it's a new page).
>>
>> I'd suggest segregating the list into 4 tables based on audience:
>>
>> user questions:
>> common-user
>> hdfs-user
>> mapreduce-user
>> security - only for notifying the project of security vulnerabilities
>>
>> project level announcements and discussions:
>> general
>>
>> developer questions:
>> common-dev
>> hdfs-dev
>> mapreduce-dev
>>
>> jira and subversion tracking for developers:
>> common-issues
>> common-commits
>> hdfs-issues
>> hdfs-commits
>>
>> mapreduce-issues
>> mapreduce-commits
>>
>> -- Owen
>